Vatican’s Ambassador to Israel Monsignor Antonio Franco will attend Holocaust memorial service at Yad Vashem, reversing earlier decision to boycott event due to caption at museum describing wartime conduct of Pope Pius XII; ‘it was only diplomacy,’ he says of affair
by Lilach Shoval and AP, ynet, 15/04/2007
The Vatican’s ambassador to Israel will attend a Holocaust memorial service at the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum, reversing an earlier decision to boycott the event, officials said Sunday.
The boycott had threatened to upset fragile relations between Israel and the Vatican.
The Vatican’s ambassador, Monsignor Antonio Franco, announced last week that he would skip Sunday night’s event because of a caption at the museum describing the wartime conduct of Pope Pius XII.
The caption next to the picture of Pius in Yad Vashem’s museum reads, “Even when reports about the murder of Jews reached the Vatican, the pope did not protest,” refusing to sign a 1942 allied condemnation of the massacre of Jews.
Pius “maintained his neutral position” with two exceptions, the caption says, criticizing “his silence and absence of guidelines.” The exceptions were appeals to the rulers of Hungary and Slovakia toward the end of the war.
Officials from Yad Vashem, the Vatican’s Embassy and the Israeli Foreign Ministry confirmed that Sunday that Franco had reversed his decision and would attend Sunday’s ceremony.
Franco told Ynet he merely wanted to draw attention to the Catholic Church’s stance regarding the picture of Pius, saying it was “only diplomacy.”
According to him, there is evidence that the pope worked diligently to help save Jewish lives during the Holocaust. He said he would attend the ceremony because he is “not against the memory of the Holocaust or the people of Israel.”
“We just want the truth about Pope Pius to be clearer,” Marco said.
19 comments:
Roy,
fiindca ai creat o postare despre acest subiect legat de Vatican swinging moods, ...
imi voi muta si eu postarile de pe "chat" aici, la subiect.
despre Papa Pius XII s-au scris multe, insa un lucru e cert, ...
el era Vaticanul, Vaticanul avea "Reichskonkordat" cu Germania lui Hitler (pe care Pacelli s-a zbatut sa-l obtina, inca inainte de a deveni Papa), prin care guvernul nazist a considerat ca a obtinut legitimizare, prin care s-a stipulat ca bisericile din Germania sint in subordinea guvernului nazist, prin care s-a stipulat ca problema "evreeasca" este o problema "interna a Germaniei ...
Nu se neaga ca ... Pacelli a facut cite ceva "behind the scenes", pentru citiva evrei mai proeminenti (care apoi si-au exprimat "gratitudinea" prin fraze goale), care au dat bani si care aveau o anume influenta, ...
Nu se neaga ca ... spre sfirsitul razboiului din motive politice (1943-44, dupa ce a fost contactat de U.S. si a realizat deznodamintul razboiului) a "sfatuit" atit guvernele cit si bisericile ca ar fi "mai bine" sa-si "imblinzeasca" atitudine fatza de evrei si s-o lase mai moale cu deportarile ...
(... de aia se zice ca a salvat 800000 de evrei, din aritmetica deportarilor care au fost oprite, nu se stie daca din cauza papei, ... ca Vaticanul tine documentele ascunse ... sau din cauza trezirii la realitate a guvernelor care si-au dat seama de cum vor fi analizate actiunile lor, dupa infringere ...)
Insa in anii WWII, pozitia oficiala Vaticanului a fost de a tace milk in fatza ororilor de care era extrem de bine informat ..., in numele unei neutralitati pline de lashitate, pentru o entitate de anvergura si puterea ei.
De altfel pozitia Vaticanului fatza de evrei era destul de bine definita... Abia in 1965 "the Vatican eliminated the phrase "perfidious Jews" from the liturgy of a Holy Week service.
Nu degeaba, sub Pope John II, in 1988, "The Vatican has apologised to Jews on behalf of the entire Roman Catholic community, for failing to speak out against the Nazi holocaust during World War Two.
Ce trebuie insa mentionat, este ca un mare numar de oameni simpli, chiar si clerici catolici, au ajutat, cu riscul vietii lor, pe multi evrei in timpul acelor vremuri, ... si evreii le vor fi LOR vesnic recunoscatori, ... insa intr-un fel demn, ... fiindca acei oameni nu au facut-o pentru "evrei", ci fiindca asa au considerat ei ca trebuie sa fie comportamentul intre oameni .
iar aceasta cucOriana cu limbaj cam spurcat, care ... pina mai deunazi ciripea cu candoare de una singura:
"Ccca 10 ani in urma habar nu aveam despre nimic relativ la evrei, Israel, etc... nu ma interesa, aveam cu totul alte interese.... si ascultam discursurile lui Berlusconi, inerente la Israel: ei mi-au deschis ochii si sufletul, daca azi am convingerile mele in privinta Israelului," ... cheap ci-rip, cirip, cheap cheap."
si care crede ca se poate erija in mare "cunoscatoare" a istoriei neamului evreiesc, ... doar fiindca a citit publicatiile "populiste" emise de Vatican (ca pe alea adevarate le tin ei sub cheie...)
se face de ris, cu pompozitatea ei de chiritza: "Papa ce sa fie ??? "Reabilitat" ??? Pt. c-a salvat peste 800.000 de evrei ascunzandu-i in Castel Gandolfo ?
Un monument ar trebui sa-i ridice Israel, sa-i pupe picioarele,..."
Evreii, precum am zis, isi exprima recunostinta in mod demn, ... ar fi fost onorati sa se simta recunoscatori fatza de Vatican, sau Papa Pius XII, daca era cazul,
dar ... vede-se treaba ca nu a fost ... (nu cred ca acest papa va fi beatificat, cineva acolo sus, nu o va permite ...)
In schimb evreii vor ramine recunoscatori oamenilor care i-au ajutat cu riscul vietii lor, care i-au considerat in primul rind oameni si semeni cu ei.
Acesti oameni ar fi oripilati la ideea ca ar merita sa li se "pupe picioarele" pentru un act uman si plin de normalitate fatza de niste semeni de-ai lor.
Doar acei care NU ii considera semeni de-ai lor isi pot imagina un asemenea fel de a-ti exprima o gratitudine.
Iata ce scrie wikipedia despre ambivalentza Vaticanului in perioada Holocaustului:
Pius engineered an agreement—formally approved on June 23, 1939—with Brazilian President Getúlio Vargas to issue 3,000 visas to "non-Aryan Catholics". However, over the next eighteen months Brazil’s Conselho de Imigração e Colonização (CIC) continued to tighten the restrictions on their issuance—including requiring a baptismal certificate dated before 1933, a substantial monetary transfer to the Banco de Brasil, and approval by the Brazilian Propaganda Office in Berlin—culminating in the cancellation of the program fourteen months later, after fewer than 1,000 visas had been issued, amid suspicions of "improper conduct" (i.e. continuing to practice Judaism) among those who had received visas.[67][25]
Cardinal Secretary of State Luigi Maglione received a request from Chief Rabbi of Palestine Isaac Herzog in the Spring of 1940 to intercede on behalf of Lithuanian Jews about to be deported to Germany.[25] Pius called Ribbentrop on March 11, repeatedly protesting against the treatment of Jews.[68]
In 1941, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of Vienna informed Pius of Jewish deportations in Vienna.[65] Later that year, when asked by French Marshal Philippe Pétain if the Vatican objected to anti-Jewish laws, Pius responded that the church condemned anti-semitism, but would not comment on specific rules.[65] Similarly, when Pétain's puppet government adopted the "Jewish statutes," the Vichy ambassador to the Vatican, Léon Bérard, was told that the legislation did not conflict with Catholic teachings.[69] Valerio Valeri, the nuncio to France was "embarrassed" when he learned of this publicly from Pétain[70] and personally checked the information with Cardinal Secretary of State Maglione[71] who confirmed the Vatican's position.[72] In September 1941 Pius objected to a Slovakian Jewish Code,[73] which, unlike the earlier Vichy codes, prohibited intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews.[74] In October 1941 Harold Tittman, a U.S. delegate to the Vatican, asked the pope to condemn the atrocities against Jews; Pius replied that the Vatican wished to remain "neutral,"[75] reiterating the neutrality policy which Pius invoked as early as September 1940.[76]
In 1942, the Slovakian charge d'affaires, told Pius that Slovakian Jews were being sent to concentration camps.[65] On March 11, 1942, several days before the first transport was due to leave, the charge d'affaires in Bratislava reported to the Vatican: "I have been assured that this atrocious plan is the handwork of.....Prime Minister (Tuka), who confirmed the plan... he dared to tell me - he who makes such a show of his Catholicism - that he saw nothing inhuman or un-Christian in it...the deportation of 80,000 persons to Poland, is equivalent to condemning a great number of them to certain death." The Vatican protested to the Slovak government that it "deplore(s) these...measures which gravely hurt the natural human rights of persons, merely because of their race."[77]
On September 18, 1942, Pius received a letter from Monsignor Montini (future Pope Paul VI), saying, "the massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms."[65] Later that month, Myron Taylor, U.S. representative to the Vatican, warned Pius that the Vatican's "moral prestige" was being injured by silence on European atrocities—a warning which was echoed simultaneously by representatives from Great Britain, Brazil, Uruguay, Belgium, and Poland[78]— the Cardinal Secretary of State replied that the rumors about genocide could not be verified.[79] In December 1942, when Tittman asked Cardinal Secretary of State Maglione if Pius would issue a proclamation similar to the Allied declaration "German Policy of Extermination of the Jewish Race," Maglione replied that the Vatican was "unable to denounce publicly particular atrocities."[80]
In late 1942, Pius XII advised German and Hungarian bishops that speaking out against the massacres in the eastern front would be politically advantageous.[81] On April 7, 1943, Msgr. Tardini, one of Pius’s closest advisors, told Pius that it would be politically advantageous after the war to take steps to help Slovakian Jews.[82]
In January 1943, Pius would again refuse to publicly denounce the Nazi violence against Jews, following requests to do so from Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, and Bishop Konrad von Preysing of Berlin.[83] On September 26, 1943, following the German occupation of northern Italy, Nazi officials gave Jewish leaders in Rome 36 hours to produce 50 kilograms of gold (or the equivalent) threatening to take 300 hostages. Then Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli recounts in his memoir, that he was selected to go to the Vatican and seek help.[84] The Vatican offered to loan 15 kilos, but the offer proved unnecessary when the Jews received an extension.[85] Soon afterwards, when deportations from Italy were imminent, 477 Jews were hidden in the Vatican itself and another 4,238 were protected in Roman monasteries and convents.[86]
On April 30, 1943, Pius wrote to Archbishop Von Preysing of Berlin to say : "We give to the pastors who are working on the local level the duty of determining if and to what degree the danger of reprisals and of various forms of oppression occasioned by episcopal declarations...seem to advise caution....The Holy See has done whatever was in its power, with charitable, financial and moral assistance. To say nothing of the substantial sums which we spent in American money for the fares of immigrants."[87]
On October 28, 1943, Weizsacker, the German Ambassador to the Vatican, telegrammed Berlin that the pope "has not allowed himself to be carried away [into] making any demonstrative statements against the deportation of the Jews."[88]
In March 1944, through the papal nuncio in Budapest, Angelo Rotta urged the Hungarian government to moderate its treatment of the Jews.[89] These protests, along with others from the King of Sweden, the International Red Cross, the United States, and Britain led to the cessation of deportations on 8 July 1944.[90] Also in 1944, Pius appealed to 13 Latin American governments to accept "emergency passports", although it also took the intervention of the U.S. State Department for those countries to honor the documents.[91]
When the church transferred 6,000 Jewish children in Bulgaria to Palestine, Cardinal Secretary of State Maglione reiterated that the Holy See was not a supporter of Zionism.[89]
In August 2006 extracts from the 60-year-old diary of a nun of the Convent of Santi Quattro Coronati[92] were published in the Italian press, stating that Pope Pius XII ordered Rome's convents and monasteries to hide Jews during the Second World War.[93]
ICJHC
Main article: International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission
In 1999, in an attempt to address some of this controversy, the Vatican appointed the International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission (ICJHC), a group composed of three Jewish and three Catholic scholars to investigate the role of the Church during the Holocaust. In 2001, the ICJHC issued its preliminary finding, raising a number of questions about the way the Vatican dealt with the Holocaust, titled " The Vatican and the Holocaust: A Preliminary Report."[122]
The Commission discovered documents making it clear that Pius was aware of widespread anti-Jewish persecution in 1941 and 1942, and they suspected that the Church may have been influenced in not helping Jewish immigration by the nuncio of Chile and the Papal representative to Bolivia, who complained about the "invasion of the Jews" to their countries, where they engaged in "dishonest dealings, violence, immorality, and even disrespect for religion."[122]
The ICJHC raised a list of 47 questions about the way the Church dealt with the Holocaust, requested documents that had not been publicly released in order to continue their work, and, not receiving permission, they disbanded in July of 2001, having never issued a final report. Unsatisfied with the findings, Dr. Michael Marrus, one of the three Jewish members of the Commission, said the commission "ran up against a brick wall.... It would have been really helpful to have had support from the Holy See on this issue."[123]
Figura lui Pius este departe de a fi clara.
unele lucruri nu se vor clarifica niciodata ...
Vaticanul nu a excelat in decursul istoriei prin luari "eroice" de pozitie ...,
asa ca mi s-a parut cam ciudata actiunea Monsignorului de a se arata ofuscat ...
Pe drept sau pe nedrept, acele citeva actiuni intirziate "behind the scenes" nu ii vor aduce lui Papa Pius XXII, reprezentantul Vaticanului acelor vremi, un titlu de glorie ...
Inclin sa cred ca din nou s-a lucrat "behind the scenes", insa de data asta cu rezultate "vizibile" si "rapide" pentru a se evita o situatie penibila in care Monsignorul era cit p'aci sa puna Vaticanul ...
Bietul Papa Ratzinger, nu a putut sa-si celebreze ziua de nastere (80 de ani) in liniste ...
La multi ani, PapaRazzy !!!
(el adora cind il numesc asa ...)
Inca un articol, recentissim,
intr-u clarificarea pozitiei Vaticanului (daca mai era nevoie) in anii celui de-al II-lea RM ...
iar aceasta cucOriana cu limbaj cam spurcat
---
E compatibil cu asa interlocutori.
Penibila pledoarie ai facut despre... Ingratitudine. Ar fi cazul sa deschida si Vaticanul "un muzeu de ingratitudine", unde sa mearga si elevii catolici in vizita si sa citeasca tot soiul de trasnai.
Nu ma mai cita aiurea, cu pasaje extrapolate din context, ca de vin eu cu citatiile tale, ti-ai dat foc la valiza de gogosi umflati, pe care tot incerci sa-i bagi pe git la cei care nu te cunosc.
Repet: poza aceea cu frazele ofensive la adresa unui om care a facut doar BINE, tb. sa dispara, asa cum a promis seful Muzeului.
Sa se afiseze frazele rostite de Golda Meir, de fostul sef Rabin al Romei ELIO TOAFF, daca Israel-Eugenio ZOLLI (din Zoller) nu le ajunge...
Curios, amandoi atat de zelosi, dar n-ati pomenit de calomniile legate si de copilasii evrei, ramasi ORFANI si revendicati de diverse lobbies teologice evreiesti, dupa razboi, ca sa fie luati din familii, manastiri, etc si dusi FORTAT in Palestina, drept coloni.
Tare va mai doare pe voi sufletul de niste ORFANI, de nici nu i-ati mentionat...
Onestà intelettuale: ZERO !
treaba cu "orfanii" este un alt subiect in care biserica nu si-a respectat cuvintul dat, doar ca nu asta era subiectul aici...,
ci pactul Vaticanului cu guvernul nazist.
Acel pact ramine legat de Vatican, la fel cum ramine abtinerea lui de a condamna "nazismul".
Tu ai ales doar articole "vaticaniste" si spicuiri selectate din discursurile care le slujesc lor interesele ... si tie argumentele.
Bravo tie, sint parerile tale, nu iti cere nimeni sa ti le schimbi, si nici nu foloseste nimeni un limbaj spurcat fatza de tine fiindca le ai.
Dar sint multi altii care au si ei dreptul la parerile lor, si asta nu te indreptateste pe tine sa folosesti insulte de maidan.
Ti-am mai zis, daca consideri ca limbajul tau spurcat e compatibil du-te si utilizeaza-l cu prietenii tai, cu familia ta, cu cei dragi tie, cu cei care te aplauda pentru asa ceva ...
Golda Meir, Elio Toaff erau vaticanisti ! Esti dusa cu sorcova.
ref. utilizeaza-l cu prietenii tai, cu familia ta, cu cei dragi tie, cu cei care te aplauda pentru asa ceva ...
--
Nu, il folosesc doar cu mojici si mincinosi.
Ti-am mai zis sa nu te mai legi de familia mea, esti SURDA ?!
si eu ti-am spus sa nu mai utilizezi limbajul tau plin de insulte si de spurcaciuni fatza de mine si fatza de prietenii mei !
daca te faci ca nu intelegi, iti desenez: "vaticanistii" au selectionat din discursurile lui Golda sau a altora ceea ce le-a convenit lor. Acestia s-au pronuntzat legat de cele citeva actiuni "behind the scenes" si destul de spre sfirsitul razboiului (cind se stia deja deznodamindul)ale lui Pacelli, ... too little, too late.
Insa in nici un caz nimeni nu va uita si nu va aplauda pozitia oficiala a Vaticanului ...
Dar ti-am mai spus, e parerea ta, nimeni nu te injura si nu iti cere sa ti-o schimbi. Poti chiar sa le ridici statui si sa "pupi picioare", cum te-ai exprimat.
Dar abtine-te sa ceri asta altora.
Si-acum cred ca ai spus tot ce ai avut de spus despre acest subiect.
Pina si Vaticanul a lasat-o balta !
Sa fii iubita si aplaudata !
"A prominent evangelical Christian leader in Israel on Monday called on the Vatican to open its archives if they have any evidence that Pope Pius XII did not remain silent during the mass murder of six million Jews during the Holocaust.
"This is not Yad Vashem's narrative but a generally accepted historical narrative," said Rev. Malcolm Hedding, the executive director of the International Christian Embassy, a Jerusalem-based evangelical organization.
"If the papal nuncio wants to protest then he must prove his case and show us otherwise by opening the Vatican archives," he added.
... the evangelical leader said the papal nuncio's threatened boycott of Israel's official state ceremony marking Holocaust Remembrance Day was "totally unacceptable" behavior that bespoke a lack of understanding of the enormity of the Holocaust.
"The papal nuncio's blurring of a historical debate with the respect and memory of Holocaust martyrs was deeply irresponsible and disrespectful to the memory of the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust," Hedding concluded. ... (intreg articolul:
Christians press Vatican on archives )
zice Robin in cadrul discutiei care se intinde ca o peltea:
" ... acuzatia este bogus! Nu poti sa acuzi pe cineva de ce n-a facut!
... Daca iesi din sfera precisa a faptelor si intri in zona obscura a opiniilor, nu mai ajungi nicaieri. Daca acuzi pe cineva ca n-a facut ceva, unde te mai opresti?
Nu cunosc foarte multe detalii despre subiect...
Sa nu uitam ca Papa se afla la Roma, nu la New York, si, de asemenea, ca tinta numarul doi a lui Hitler, dupa evrei, erau catolicii.
... La urma urmei, ti-e mai aproape camasa decit haina... :-)"
Da, skumpiku`, de acord cu tine (cu toate ca inca din vremuri stravechi s-au stabilit "standarde mai inalte" pentru preoti, dascali, medici, judecatori, ... si mai ales, pentru Papa de la Roma cu Vaticanul moralist,
decit pentru ... muritorii de rind.)
dar hai sa zicem ca tu ai o mai mare indulgenta si intelegere ... insa din cele spuse de tine,
sper ca esti de acord ca pentru comportamentul cu "camasa mai aproape ..." nu e cazul sa primesti calificativul de erou, nu e cazul de ridicat "statui si pupat picioare".
atita TOT.
si, ca sa nu creada Dan Bostan ca,
comentariile lui ar fi trecute cu vederea, ...
he said: " E cunoscuta atitudinea dusmanoasa a MULTOR evrei fata de crestinism..."
fraza de mai sus are o calitate speciala, ca sa nu zic unica, si anume, ... istoria a demonstrat ca daca o reciti pe INVERSA ei, ai mult mai putine şanse s-o dai in bara ...
tot Dan Bostan said "... de ce sa ne mire atitudinea lor fata de PAPA, capul bisericii catolice?"
Wrong !!! ai scapat un mic "amanunt" extrem de esential, e vorba de un anume papa, cel care a reprezentat Vaticanul care avea pact cu "nazismul" ...
Papa Ratzinger este apreciat si respectat, ... iar Papa Wojtyla a fost si este in continuare adorat.
Personal, apreciez investirea lui Papa Benedict in vederea sanctificarii lui Papa John Paul II, ... am intuitia ca va reusi.
Si, ca sa inchei eu pelteaua despre subiectul Papa PiusXII, iata aici un articol care incearca sa impace si capra si varza, insa care pina la urma concluzioneaza cu:
"Whatever he did say on behalf of imperiled Jews--and Dalin is correct to point out that Pius was not "silent"--the pontiff never said anything so emphatic, unequivocal or explicit on behalf of those innocent Jewish civilians being conveyed to the charnel houses of Poland.
Unfortunately, Dalin cites approvingly the now thoroughly discredited statement of Pinchas Lapide, who estimated that Pius "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000 but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." Ultramontane Catholics have since 1967 been quick to seize upon these figures.
Why, defenders of the wartime pontiff invariably inquire, would an Israeli and a Jew like Lapide have reason to exaggerate?
In this and similar cases, the answer is transparently clear: political exigency.
Lapide was in the 1960s an Israeli consul in Milan and was attempting, at the time he made his inflated estimates, to secure Vatican recognition for the state of Israel.
Similar motives explain statements made in the immediate postwar period by Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, foreign ministers of the new state of Israel.
Had these statements been accurate within even an order of magnitude, Pius would perhaps deserve to be honored by Yad Vashem and celebrated by Rabbi Dalin as a righteous gentile.
They were not.
Whatever was thus gained diplomatically by these statements--in the short run, precious little--was purchased at the cost of considerable historical untruth."
... si aici trebuie, cu tristetze sa recunosc veridicitatea acestei ultime fraze. De multe ori in decursul istoriei neamului, evreii s-au facut vinovati de astfel de compromisuri, pe care mereu le-au platit insutit, ... insa nu invatza ...
In incheiere, sintem atentionati ca ar fi " a gross historical and especially moral error to make Pius XII a primary target of moral outrage, ... other churches, Protestant as well as Catholic, played a terrible role not only in not resisting but in actively promoting National Socialism. One thinks especially of the largely Evangelical "German Christian" churches, whose members installed swastikas in churches and blasphemously raised extended right arms in homage to Hitler.
If Pius XII never approached that level of moral depravity, it is still fair to say that he was a cautious, passive diplomat, conditioned by his training in canon law and his career in foreign service to proceed with prudence and discretion.
In other words, he was a bureaucrat at a time when the world, and especially the Jews of Europe, needed a prophet, or at least a priest more alert to demonic evil.
That doesn't make him Hitler's pope. Nor a righteous gentile, either."
( interesant articolul ...)
Merci de atentie, da' nu trebuia!
Vad ca continui sa ma citezi pe sarite. Nu-mi aduc aminte sa fi cerut cuiva sa pupe picioarele alcuiva. In orice caz, in cele scrise de tine am aflat raspunsul la o intrebare de-a mea ne-citata, si anume "cit de mult este suficient de mult":
In other words, he was a bureaucrat at a time when the world, and especially the Jews of Europe, needed a prophet
Mare tie gradina ta, Doamne, si multi i-au mai sarit gardu'... :-))
Robin: "Mare tie gradina ta, Doamne, si multi i-au mai sarit gardu'... :-))"
... daca cumva ti-ai zgiriat genunchii, pune nitzel spirt, ca trece.
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